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Question: What would Adobe need to add to Lr ‘Cloud’ for you to switch from Lr Classic?

A friend asked me this question recently, and it really made me stop and think.

I don’t want to share my answers yet because I don’t want it to influence your answers (or to put something in your head that wasn’t already there), but I’d love to hear them. Are we at the point (now that you can store your images locally in Lr ‘cloud’ without even syncing your images to the cloud at all) that it finally makes sense for Lr Classic users to move over, or are we still a long way away?

Leave your thoughts/comments below.

Have a great Monday, everybody. 🙂

-Scott

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75 comments

  1. David I Schamis 22 November, 2023 at 09:00 Reply

    I have switched to Lr and have removed LrC from my computers so I don’t even feel tempted (I have burned my bridges).

    That being said I am keeping a running list of the things I wish it had, with some important mitigants:

    – Virtual copies (or preferably Versions) in the Local tab. I know the local tab is new but this feature would be great. I guess it really depends on whether Adobe can embed multiple versions in an XMP or DNG file – I certainly hope so.

    – Larger previews in the grid view – it would be nice if I could get the previews much larger in the grid view.

    – WAV files – I’m sure I am in the minority here but it would be great if Lr could associate a WAV file with a pic and allow us to listen to the WAV file directly from Lr. I know this is a niche interest, but its important to me and on my list.

    – Convert to DNG – I convert everything to DNG (I have had the debates many times with people – I remain all in on DNG). It would be nice if you can do that from within Lr. Right now I use the Adobe DNG Converter to import my pics from the card, which is actually fine, but it would be better within Lr.

    – Export presets – I haven’t figured out a way to save customized export presets – this would be very nice and something I used in LrC every day.

    – Export to PS in PSD format – this probably doesn’t matter that much because after exporting as a TIF to PS I just save the file as a PSD in the same folder and Lr immediately see it, so this is probably low on my list of priorities and is more about muscle memory from LrC.

    – More metadata – and specifically more ways to filter by metadata. The mitigant here, somewhat surprisingly, has been me going back to using Bridge which allows for some very powerful metadata filtering. But it would be better to have this in Lr.

  2. Dave Cornue 14 November, 2023 at 08:33 Reply

    I way, ever gonna happen!! I’ve lost stuff (mostly magazines) from the cloud before – I will never trust it with my photos!

  3. Al Aikens 7 November, 2023 at 14:57 Reply

    Scott, I should have included this in my previous submittal. You’ve said that you’d update the LRC interface, what updates do you recommend and why?

    I am comfortable with it; however, I’d change the default order of the Development panels to the order that they are applied by the program. There is an order that adjustments are applied in the program’s code and a rationale supporting that order developed by the programming team. This will help the user understand that previous adjustments are not affected by, successive adjustments. The most recent example of this is DeNoise in the Detail panel. Adobe’s guidance is to apply DeNoise early in the workflow while the Detail panel is positioned in the middle of the default panel stack. Therefore, the Detail panel should be positioned high in the default panel stack to suggest to the user to consider DeNoise and sharpening early in the workflow.

  4. Steve Kalman 7 November, 2023 at 06:30 Reply

    I would not care to lose my folder hierarchy. Some years ago you recommended setting up folders (collection sets? — I did both) based on location. So I have US-East, US-West, Europe, etc and each of them has subfolders with images from various trips. I keyword on import with the folder name (e.g. “Amsterdam”). As I edit for print/publish I create color labels and stars. Those are used in smart collections along with built in things like portrait/landscape (and more). I might have made it too complex for anyone else to use, but I have over 100K images and I can find any of them in just a few moments.

    Checking Adobe’s helpx file tells me that neither smart collections nor folder hierarchy will be retained.

    Also, I have plenty of disk space and two different online backups.

  5. Alex 6 November, 2023 at 06:47 Reply

    I am not going to switch anything that involves my photos to some cloud service and that’s because:
    1. You, the creator, have no control as to what happens to your work. You can’t control a fire at the warehouse the servers are located, you cannot control who else has access to your work, and so on. I won’t be using the other Lightroom ever for these reasons.

    2. The “Classic” version should be called ‘Lightroom’, and the Cloud version should be called: “Lightroom Cloud”. That’s the only naming that makes any sense.

    3. If I would change anything about Lightroom Classic it would be the Book module, I would add direct access to print with Shutterfly, and the Web Module to work together with Adobe Portfolio or other websites.

    So to answer your question as to “what Adobe could do to make you you LR Cloud” is: Absolutely nothing. There is nothing they can do to make me want to use / switch to that version.

  6. David Skinner 6 November, 2023 at 02:00 Reply

    Very interesting question. Surely Adobe does not want to be supporting 2 different versions of the same product in the future. As LRC is much older it would seem that is the one they would phase out. Watch Art is Right performance tests of the Apple silicon on YouTube and it shows that LR makes better use of the CPU. Clearly, Adobe risks alienating their customer base unless the differences between the two are minimal. Does Scott Kelby know something we don’t 😉

  7. Bob 5 November, 2023 at 00:49 Reply

    Scott,
    Are you not the person who always called Lightroom (Cloud) “Lightroom for children”?
    I think you have answered your own question!
    Best regards (and I have no plan to use Lightroom (for children) for all the reasons already mentioned by others).

  8. Kevin Williams 1 November, 2023 at 19:36 Reply

    Honestly: nothing. At least, realistically nothing. Pay me a million dollars per year forever? Then maybe.

    My original photos stay on my hard drive. Period. No “cloud”.

    If Lightroom Classic ever went away, I would honestly just sell all my gear and quit photography. I’m not using Photoshop, or CaptureOne, or anything else.

  9. Susan Rainey 1 November, 2023 at 17:38 Reply

    I agree with the myriad of posts before mine who don’t want to change. I’m a pro who shoots medium format and I must be able to zoom into 300% and more when editing. I also shoot product shots for clients who are very concerned with security and think no one is hack-proof. I love Lightroom Classic for what it does — Adobe, please concentrate on that. The little Devil on my shoulder wants to be able to shoot tethered from my iPad and have live view on it with a zoom to 100%. 🙂

  10. Steve Chesney 1 November, 2023 at 16:45 Reply

    Maybe I’m the only one, but I would miss the Slideshow generator. I know, something, something Adobe Express, something. But The LR Classic Slideshow works for me with minimal friction and effort.

  11. Tim Dalton 31 October, 2023 at 11:49 Reply

    As an amateur / hobbiest when Adobe added local files to be visible and “usable” in Lr it made me wonder. Does this give be a better way to us Lr while traveling? Yes it does. For Me. Happy I am. I have found in a few weeks that I Like the Lr desktop interface better than LrC. And can edit on my iPad Pro just fine and it all connects.
    As far as cloud storage I have 1tb with Adobe and my plan is to keep my cloud stuff under that by only having most recent or most used or best stuff there. The rest will be on Local drives backed up here and at Backblaze. The trick is going to be figuring out if I need a hybrid Lr and LrC workflow.

    All that doesn’t answer Scott’s question , but hopefully helps with my reasoning.

    Being able to edit local files in Lr is good. What missing is having the same version functionality as Cloud Lr or better yet virtual copies in both places.
    Meta data in Lr is very skimpy, really need what LrC has. I miss the meat display in the upper left I can toggle through in LrC.
    Can only export one photo at a time to PS. This is just stupid.
    Lights out function. Silly maybe but I miss it.
    Lack of plug in use.
    Having saved user presets for Exporting. including the section on what to do after export.

    I know there’s more but others have chimed in already.

    Thanks for listening. – Tim

  12. Phil Columbus 31 October, 2023 at 08:41 Reply

    Missing features like:

    Hierarchical keywords and drag and drop adding of keywords
    Presets for metadata and data asset management
    File naming and renaming individually or batch
    Tethered shooting

    I am sure there are more but I have not explored Lightroom enough.

  13. CS Chua 30 October, 2023 at 23:41 Reply

    I have been using Lightroom Classic (LrC) since v1.0 and later Lr(desktop) then LR Mobile (LrM) and Lightroom Web (LrW).
    IMHO, Adobe is wasting money and resources developing and promoting LR. There is nothing compelling for its customers other than extracting more revenue promising cloud storage. Without saying, and there’s a lot about the pathetic features, I would rather Adobe continue developing LrM and port/sync 100% of the editing features with the LrC. Adobe need to continue pushing the envelope of the DAM features. LrC is long overdue to improve and fix numerous DAM needs for customers with over a hundred thousand photos. These customers are imho will unlikely need nor afford to keep them in the cloud.

  14. MIke 30 October, 2023 at 19:58 Reply

    Classic is my primary tool, but I have been trying to use Cloud when away from my desk. Each time I do, I’m reminded that I do not want to give up Classic due to these missing or reduced features in Cloud

    1. Edit history list – without it in cloud, I’m undoing blindly. I love going to classic history list, holding ALT key and deleting a sequence of edits that didn’t work out
    2. Grid view – only shows partial overlay (not customizable) information in one of the layouts. Drives me crazy to not be able to see overlays in all grid layouts – what camera, what exposure settings, what ISO, etc..
    3. Publishing from Lightroom to Smugmug – classic lets me publish to a specific gallery, cloud only lets me publish to a new gallery – each time.
    4. No filenames – without filenames I’m frequently toggling back/forth to the “info” pane and wondering how close I am to the end of the album
    5. No color labels – I use color labels for various supplemental tagging, but can’t use color labels from cloud
    6. UNDO action also includes changing photos and views – I **much** prefer to have undo only apply to edits in the current photo. It’s very disorienting and frustrating to be undoing edits and since I can’t see the undo stack, I undo once too many and switch photos or views before I wanted to

  15. Dorothy 30 October, 2023 at 19:55 Reply

    I wish I were more computer literate. I do not understand the cloud. I am afraid to put images on the cloud and not be able to access them. Simple is better to me.

  16. Bryan 30 October, 2023 at 19:43 Reply

    Personally I’d love if they just took the Lr interface and brought it to Classic. Or at least updated the Classic UI.

    In terms of switching, I’d need color labels, more advanced export dialog and an import dialog for locally-stored images. And taking the printing features from Classic would be great, too.

  17. Susan Scharenberg 30 October, 2023 at 19:27 Reply

    As a LrC user since 2008, my workflow is entirely local, secure and efficient, and serves well. Lr ‘Cloud’ holds no appeal, and in fact would add complexity and overhead, not to mention storage cost. That said, I respect that rich online functionality may be critical to some of the market, including cellphone shooters.

  18. Jens Hauser 30 October, 2023 at 17:43 Reply

    It is not possible for me to ditch classic because when I´m out travelling I just can´t upload all my photos. I´m just home from Namibia and I shot 500 GB of photos and the internet is just too slow. One solution is to shoot fewer and better photos and I have tried that for the last 40 years without success.

  19. Thomas 30 October, 2023 at 17:11 Reply

    I do not want to duplicate what others have already commented on. Just a few points I would add:
    – Encryption: All photos need to be encrypted at rest with a key that I manage.
    – High Sync Speed: I find LR Cloud sync to be extremely slow
    – Low Storage Cost: The cost is currently way too high

    What really drives me nuts is that Adobe does not seem to care about creating a more consistent look and feel from a feature/function perspective across LR Cloud and LrC. Yes, LR Cloud is a younger product, but unless you plan to get rid of e.g. collections from LrC, then offer them consistently across all platforms.

  20. Marcel 30 October, 2023 at 16:31 Reply

    I just want to keep my photos local and not in the cloud. Photos and also the processing on my own desktop/laptop. Everything to be independent of an internet connection. Especially when traveling and without internet or poor internet this is key to me. Classic gives me all of this and hope it will stay like this as a seperate product. Loosing this will make me move to alternative products.

  21. Stu 30 October, 2023 at 16:26 Reply

    I must admit I’ve been tempted by Lightroom Cloud numerous times. Integrating Lightroom and Photoshop on the iPad with the desktop has the potential to be a game changer.
    Have to say I always go back to Classic. It is vital to be able to rename files and store them in a folder structure that makes sense to me.
    Metadata support is sorely lacking in Lightroom. Also, I need to be able to choose whether my files are stored in the cloud or locally, bolting a file browser onto Lightroom doesn’t cut it, I would need full DAM facilities, ie a catalogue with the ability to search offline files.
    Ideally, Adobe should combine the best of both platforms, it beggars belief you cant manage Photoshop Cloud Documents from within Classic, rendering Photoshop on the iPad next to useless in a professional photography workflow

  22. Greg 30 October, 2023 at 15:45 Reply

    Reading the comments, it’s worth mentioning that LR ‘cloud’ is not exclusive to iOS or the iPad. It’s available for desktop too. In fact, the desktop version is fuller featured than the mobile version as well.

  23. Nick 30 October, 2023 at 14:35 Reply

    I won’t retype what others have already said, but I agree with all of the missing elements mentioned so far (perhaps with the exception of the book module – I don’t use that). I think what bothers me the most is that Adobe stubbornly persists in maintaining two different products. It’s bonkers. I can’t think of any other examples of the same thing happening. Imagine how god Lightroom (Classic) would be if Adobe has put the same effort into just one product rather than split over two. In addition, there’s always the background concern that Adobe might pull Classic just because it suits them. I wish they would stop with that, and just double down on Classic.

  24. Chris Patterson 30 October, 2023 at 14:07 Reply

    I am a heavy user of the various publish services in Lightroom classic including a few plugins. The equivalent in Lightroom Mobile/Cloud or whatever you want to call it are either nonexistent or are not nearly as functional. In addition, the structure of collection sets and collections, overall organization, filtering, face recognition, general usability.

    What I really want is to have the sync module sync the very small DNG smart previews so I could edit and cull in lightroom on my iPad and have those applied back to my original RAW.

    • Greg 30 October, 2023 at 15:03 Reply

      I don’t know if I’ve misunderstood, but Classic does sync smart previews to Lightroom on the iPad already. It’s a little messy and needs manual intervention to manage (as I’ve mentioned in my other comment), but it does work.

  25. Mike Mendoza 30 October, 2023 at 13:57 Reply

    I absolutely enjoy editing on my iPad..I have two things holding me back!

    No Panoromas
    No HDR.

    Stitching NEEDS to be incorporated into Lightroom Mobile.

  26. Bruno Miguel Santos 30 October, 2023 at 13:08 Reply

    Honestly, I think Lightroom Classic is good as is and it can only improve …
    I don’t think a full-on switch to the Cloud version is viable. The price for storage is the keypoint, here.
    Second of all, most people use laptops, not, tablets for editing. And even, in that regard, we still have the age old question of optimization over each OS. Let’s say, i don’t want a Ipad since i don’t own a iphone or a mac, i go Android, but, again, even if i go the lastest version of LR in Android, Lr is a clear app for Ipad. People like to have full control over what they want and what are their DAM. Lr Cloud is just a cheap and effective way for Adobe to promote their storage solution.
    I’m not a huge LR user myself, since, i work with PS, i stick with CR, but, if i would want to go a bit more into photography, LR Classic is what i would go to. I would admit to work on LR Cloud, if i could, maybe acess my files through the web via NAS, edit them and then storage them back, that i would i consider… Again, don’t know if i can do that, but, that way i wouldn’t have to pay a huge amount of money to store TB of photos in the cloud. If they say, we will switch to a full online version, ( which i doubt, but then again, with the AI push, this could be a possible option) a lot of people will jump ship and go elsewhere to do the same things they already do in Classic.
    And at the lack of a Open Source Solution or even a paid solution, Classic is the de facto software for DAM and editing.

  27. Sara 30 October, 2023 at 13:03 Reply

    It looks like some of the features of the new Lightroom aren’t available if you use the “local” option like people recognition which I use a lot in Classic.

    I’m also one of the few people who use the Books module but I could change my workflow on that if I had to.

    I would like the ability to choose a different Cloud service for storing – and I get that Adobe want me to pay for storage but I’m already paying for storage on another service and have a backup workflow for that. I don’t want to also pay for Adobe (and 20gb is not enough).

  28. Richard William O'Keeffe 30 October, 2023 at 12:51 Reply

    Scott, WiFi is not always available, often lacks speed, security can be an issue. Try using web based software in places like Antarctica and other out of the way places. And as for storing hundreds if not thousands of 45Mb plus photo files on line …….. no thank you

    • Rob Sylvan 30 October, 2023 at 13:03 Reply

      You don’t need access to Internet to use the software, only to sync files to cloud and other devices. The app is installed locally on iOS, Android, Mac, or Win, so no need to work off Lightroom Web.

    • Eric Vaandering 30 October, 2023 at 13:56 Reply

      Not saying this is it, but the one deal breaker for me is hierarchical keywords. Until that’s there, I can’t even look.

  29. Randy 30 October, 2023 at 12:29 Reply

    I begin by saying that the whole ‘local” versus “cloud” in the latest update isn’t completely clear to me. I want my files local because Adobe’s cloud storage is way too expensive for my tastes and budget.

    Second, I occasionally make books…and so the book module is important to me.

    Third, while I like the ability to show people pictures using my iPhone or iPad, I want the big screen to do the actual editing.

    Fourth, it is not clear to me how I can edit files that I have not imported, but somehow, somewhere, those edits are maintained for when I reopen the picture later. It’s also not clear to me how Lightroom would keep the connection if I move the local file somewhere else, not from inside Lightroom.

    So, I guess my short answer is, until Lightroom has all the functionality of Lightroom Classic (update the Slideshow module please!) and makes the cloud storage dirt cheap (and backed up)…then I am perfectly content to stay the way I am.

  30. Warren Neagus 30 October, 2023 at 12:20 Reply

    Disclaimer: I haven’t read any of the above comments.
    So answer – Nothing, not ever.
    I like the way Classic works and I dislike the the whole keywording thing with Lightroom “Cloud”.
    I also “feel” that I have a little more control with Classic over images that belong to me.

  31. Robert Edmund Panick 30 October, 2023 at 12:10 Reply

    First reason, I don’t own an iPad. I have a Dell XPS 17 laptop that blows the doors off of any iPad screen out there. Why would I want to go to a small screen.

    Second, I have over a dozen years of images sitting in LRC. All keyworded and organized by collections, many of them query based. LRLite doesn’t really support that. My library currently sits at just under 4 TB, where in cloud would that go?

    Third, when editing I use PS, Aurora, Neo, and a few others as plug ins. How would those work with LRLite?

    Fourth, printing. Yeah, I still make prints.

    • Rob Sylvan 30 October, 2023 at 13:01 Reply

      You can use Lightroom on your Dell too. It works on Win, Mac, iOS, and Android and you can use any or all combo of devices on those platforms. No iPad required or needed.

  32. Steven L Gotz 30 October, 2023 at 12:08 Reply

    I can’t afford to store terabytes of images in the cloud, and really don’t need access to all of them all the time. So what I might possibly need is the ability to use Ai to search and/or analyze my images on my hard drives in the same way it can do it in the cloud.

    I think that the real question is, what changes in my workflow could possibly occur that would send me over to Lightroom in the cloud? And I can’t think of any.

  33. Charles Putnam 30 October, 2023 at 11:44 Reply

    The three biggest things that they’d have to add:

    1. Print module (including ability to adjust print rightness
    2. Book module
    3. Round-tripping to Photoshop any any other plugin

  34. Robert Stewart 30 October, 2023 at 11:25 Reply

    I will simply never switch to LR Cloud over LR Classic. If Adobe were to shutdown the Classic version, I would be forced to switch to a different program. The real question is “Why change LR Cloud if it already exists in Classic”. I can see where the two different programs have their place in some workflows, but I still prefer the Classic version. Believe it or not, not everyone is carrying around an iPad.

  35. Ricardo Robles 30 October, 2023 at 11:05 Reply

    Keywords… as long as I’m unable to tag photos by myself and just trust an AI to do it, it’s useless to me.

  36. Mike Worley 30 October, 2023 at 09:26 Reply

    I would never have seriously considered a move to Lr before I decided to switch to iPad as my primary off-site platform. Although I still do most editing in LrC, I do use Lr more – just because it’s what’s available for iPad. That said, here’s what I would need to make Lr my primary app.

    * File renaming. I use this for every photo I have in my library and something I currently have to do ‘after the fact’ in LrC if I do off-site edits in Lr. It’s a critical part of my DAM.
    * A much more robust Export option, complete with the types of export presets that LrC has. This is something I use every day and I export to several different standards for different purposes.
    * Print Module. Not something I use every day but I use it often enough to make it a necessity
    * Map Module. Again, not an everyday thing, but I do use it occasionally to locate photos
    * Edit history
    * Filter and Select. I find that I can filter a group of past photos, but then if I want to select some of those to place in an album, Lr won’t let me do that. Once you start making selections, the filter turns off. So the only way to do it is to filter, then place the whole group in an album, and then go into the album to remove the unwanted photos – which many times far outnumber the ones I want in the album. Not a very efficient system.
    * I agree with Greg that we should have a choice as to whether photos from LrC are saved to Lr as smart previews for full sized files. That would be a must if Abobe ever wants people to migrate from LrC to Lr.
    * Make the whole app more stable. I don’t know how many times I’ve started working on something and have Lr suddenly jump to another window.

  37. Nate Hudson 30 October, 2023 at 09:04 Reply

    I now live by the cloud version and i’ve used lightroom since V1. I don’t see why anyone is so die hard about Classic.

    Yes, plugin support is nice. I rarely use plugins. When I do, it’s usually because i goofed and an image was soft, or i underexposed which introduced noise. For that, I install those plugins over to photoshop and I’ll fix those issues there. I usually end up in photoshop for stuff like frequency separation, etc. anyways.

    Tethering in Classic kinda sucks! I never liked the tethering in Lightroom. For one, their tethering support sucks. But when you get it to work, it isn’t anything special. Literally, an ipad app walks circles around lightroom tethering. It’s called Cascable. Why does it walk circles around other tethering apps? (I’ll give smart tether credit as it is pretty great if you are on desktop)Well for one, I can shoot and have it stored to many drives all at once. Literally, I’ll hook up a hub and have an SSD hooked up, a thumb drive hooked up, and I’ll have it stored internally within the app storage. That’s one thumb drive for agency, an SSD for backup, and internal storage for my editing.

    When it comes to workflow, for me, there is no better editing than having apple pencil in hand. I feel connected to the photo. I have been doing this well before Adobe introduced AI masks which just made it easier. It just feels right to get in there for skin retouching. It feels like i’m interacting with the photo in a more direct manner.

    Also, I love that they now have offline workflow that basically was the main reason for people using Classic. Now, you can do that too in Lightroom. Let’s stop calling it cloud. It is just Lightroom and Lightroom classic.

    There are a small amount of things they could improve, like either lightroom or photoshop for ipad being able to crop/resize to an exact resolution.

    For those threatening to go elsewhere before having to move to Lightroom, good luck, it ain’t pretty. I’ve tried them all. And by tried, I mean, I gave myself a month on each with no exception of cheating and going back to Adobe. I pray someone comes and steals Adobe’s thunder, but everyone that tries, comes close, but then fails in some major way that I can’t continue with their product. Lightroom is not so different from Classic that you all of a sudden can’t function. If you can’t handle that transition, I’d love to be a fly on the wall when you jump to Capture One, On1, Affinity Photo, etc.

  38. Michal 30 October, 2023 at 09:03 Reply

    there is no such a thing… i don’t edit on mobile devices…and on PC there is no better thing than Classic, especially with regards to DAM… so thank you but no thank you 🙂

  39. John Gerard 30 October, 2023 at 08:50 Reply

    Lightroom is definitely closing the gap but there are a few things I want to see added to Lightroom that I use regularly in Classic. First, the LIBRARY module in Classic is essential to my DAM (Digital Assets Management) aka organizing all my images so I can find them quickly. I wouldn’t mind if they added Sensei search to Classic. I also TETHER in Classic, I want the PRINT module and I really like the BOOK module even if most of my books are printed to PDF. Lastly, at least the last think that comes to mind, IMPORTING & EXPORTING. Yes, Lightroom can import and “Save” images to share, but having presents to rename, add copyright and photographer data then store the images in the right folder on an external drive is powerful stuff, plus the Export tools in Classic are essential for me. Exporting multiple versions of a client proof set simultaneously is a huge time saver.

  40. Greg 30 October, 2023 at 08:17 Reply

    Actually, rethinking my original answer, what I’d really like to see is an overhaul of the sync module in Classic. As it is, it’s a PITA to replace full-size originals imported from Lightroom on mobile devices with smart previews without manual intervention. If that could be an automatic option in the preferences it would make many users very happy.

  41. Jonathan 30 October, 2023 at 07:40 Reply

    I prefer classic in every way. There is nothing that is appealing to me about the non- classic version of LR. I will never switch. If they decide to shutdown classic at some point and I have no choice to stop using classic, it is entirely possible I will move to some other platform rather than switch to the “cloud” version of Lightroom

  42. Greg 30 October, 2023 at 04:59 Reply

    Plugin support for things like negative lab pro would be a must, as well as the mapping and maybe printing modules. Improved metadata editing would be useful as well..

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