Layers in (sorry WITH) Lightroom Follow Up :)

Hi all. I wanted to take a VERY quick moment to follow up to the onOne Perfect Layers post (and comments) from the other week (sorry, I was on vacation last week). Here’s the deal. I saw three types of comments. 1 and 2 below address them pretty quickly. Number 3 below is my main point because that’s the comment I saw the most. Here goes:

1) Layers “for”, Layers “in”, Layers “with”?
One word. Yup, one word did all of this. You got us on a technicality. Should it have been written “Layers With Lightroom”. Yes. It was a simple, unintended mistake. I’m sorry. Trust me, if I could go back and change things I would. Never in my wildest dreams did I think the controversy that started here, on Scott’s blog, NAPP forums would come from this one accidentally misused word. I also never thought some of the well respected sources in the LR industry would say the things that they’ve said about NAPP over this one little word, and our enthusiasm for a product that we honestly thought would help people. You know what really surprises me though? It’s why everyone is so irate that that this plug-in opens into it’s own window. Scott and I were talking about this one quite a bit, because people’s anger over Perfect Layers opening into it’s own window really caught us by surprise. It never crossed our mind that this would become an issue because all plug-ins (that modify photos like Nik, Topaz, onOne do) open exactly the way this one does. When you use a plug-in in Photoshop, does it open a new window or does it meld seamlessly with the interface? It opens a new window right? That’s why they’re plug-ins not plug-outs. They let us work in our program and launch it (from with “IN” the program) when we want. When you use any other plug-in around, in Lightroom, it opens a new window. That’s just the way plug-ins work for Lightroom. They all do, which is why we never thought we had to qualify this one with the proper word. By the way. I just did a Google search on press releases for various plug-ins for Lightroom. Do you know how many of them stated “in Lightroom” or “within Lightroom” somewhere while describing the plug-in? At least half of the ones I found. It’s just the way the industry has come to refer to plug-ins for Lightroom. Until now, it hasn’t been a problem but I can promise you this. The word “in” will now leave our vocabulary ๐Ÿ™‚

2) But I already have Photoshop.
Then this product is not for you. I come in to contact with thousands of Lightroom users each year who came over from, say, iPhoto. They don’t have Photoshop, nor do they want it (see #3 below). This product is for them.

3) Why not Elements? It’s cheaper!
Here’s the thing. The people who tell me “I don’t want to go over to Photoshop” don’t use price as their big reason why. Instead, it’s the difficultly and learning curve associated with Photoshop and Elements. Elements is every bit as hard to use as Photoshop. It’s ridiculous that in this day and age, my mom (who is learning about photography) needs to go into a program as complicated as Elements or Photoshop to make a simple layer adjustment. There are thousands of features and tools she’ll never use, and all it does is confuse her to see them all. Elements is not a program that some one can just open up and start using. Perfect Layers is meant to bridge that gap. If you’re one of the people saying “But it doesn’t have near the amount of features that Elements or Photoshop do” then you’ve hit the nail on the head. It doesn’t. It’s not supposed to. The beauty of Perfect Layers is in it’s simplicity. I believe less is more in this case.

If you really want to know the sinister plot behind it all, it goes something like this. We’re hanging out with the guys from onOne one day and the topic came up. “Hey guys, here’s a cool idea. We meet people all the time that could benefit from layers in (sorry WITH) Lightroom. Adobe doesn’t seem to be doing it, so why don’t you give it a try?”. That’s it. No controversy. No lying, no deceit. There was no sinister “Ha Ha!!! We’re going to screw everyone now!!!” laugh the day it was released. Did I take part in being enthusiastic about it? Sure, but only because I genuinely believe that there’s a place for a product like this and I thought it was going to help people. And don’t forget, neither Scott or I told you to run out and buy this right now. All we said was, go try it. It’s free. Let the developers know what you think of it. That’s it.

In the end, I know the majority of you don’t believe I (or anyone I work with) did anything bad here. There were only about 40 comments for the whole thing. It may have blown up in a forum or blog post or two elsewhere, but it was the same sour people writing back and forth to each other about how deceptive we must be. But sometimes the squeaky wheel does get the oil. So… squeaky wheels… Stop! No need to question my (or anyone I work with) ethics. The idea and enthusiasm for Perfect Layers came from a good place. If we’re wrong about thinking it has a place, if onOne is wrong about how much they’re charging, the market will speak with their wallets. In the meantime, be nice ๐Ÿ™‚

Thanks for reading.



  1. sarahbee 29 May, 2011 at 21:11 Reply

    Sounds awesome, but before I give it a try and watch all the training videos I would like to know how much it will cost. Even though much has been made about this plug-in costing so much less than Photoshop or Elements, several searches did not reveal any information anywhere about how much it might be going to cost. I can see it being a big advantage over other programs (I use GIMP for layers now, which is pure hell). Does anyone have insight on pricing that I couldn’t find?

  2. ernst 28 May, 2011 at 05:20 Reply

    Hi all, I am amazed (perhaps as much as Scott and Co) about some of the comments! LR is great – a plug in like Layers is really great, I can get the results I visualize in a simpler and effective manner, no need ofor Photoshop by and large. Take good photos and LR in and with layers makes life so much easier! I may appear a heretic, but I much rather enjoy creativity than learning long ways of supporting creativity! If manipulation and design is required and extensive changes, by all means – horses for courses. I love Layers for LR and am happy to perfect my darkroom techniques this way – I understand it. If you don;t like, don;t buy…. Well done Scott and team for being a catalyst for onOne to release a great plug in!

  3. wirehunt 17 May, 2011 at 08:19 Reply

    Hey Matt

    I’d like to thank all that lot for kicking up, cause if they hadn’t you wouldn’t have posted this so I would have missed out on seeing this program.

    Now this looks useful, for me much more useful then CS which I find was more painful than the dentist, or setting up a home entertainment centre.

    Now to get onone to KISS. For complicated I have a wife ๐Ÿ˜‰

  4. Kevin - DSWfoto 11 May, 2011 at 12:24 Reply

    All that said.. It would be nice if Lightroom could open it up so that snap in addons could be utilized from within Lightroom.

    Imagine OnOne’s layers as one of the tools in the develop module. And, that may even allow for non destructive edits of the files, so that we don’t have to go to TIFF. But, that’s more of a request of Adobe than OnOne, as they clearly haven’t made their entire API available to 3rd party developers.

  5. Jak Keyser 9 May, 2011 at 00:57 Reply

    I surmised from the first I heard about onOne Layers last Fall, that it would be modal, i.e. take you to it’s own window — it’s just so difficult to add a layer feature within LR for Adobe and likely impossible for a third party developer.

    What I looked forward to, was whether it’s externally opening another program might consume fewer resources than Photoshop and give me faster access than going to externally edit in Photoshop — and do that elegantly with a useful subset of tools (compared to Photoshop). These questions are still unanswered here — but I can download it for free and find out for myself. Hats off to onOne for making this available. I suspect it will consume less RAM and virtual disk space as it is a specialized tool with fewer resources to load. I am also looking forward to doing masking with a Wacom tablet.
    Another comparison to be made is to the brush toolset LR already has. For exposure and other tools, the brushes in LR do a nice job.
    For masking with precision, I will still probably resort to Photoshop where I can use masking plug-ins as well as paths and refine mask tools with my tablet.
    It’s all good!
    If Adobe could just add a Fill brush tool, it would take care of a lot of my needs.

  6. Peter Raymond 8 May, 2011 at 07:23 Reply

    Bit late coming to this post.

    Come on now.

    As you never used the term ‘Layers In Lightroom’ in the original post,what level of pedantry squabbles about the use of ‘with’ over ‘for’? To me – in this instance – they are interchangeable.

    I know you don’t want to alienate sectors of your audience Matt, but I beg you not to pander to this degree.

    We are all adults here, but I thought this blog was about Lightroom not semantics.

    Love for the UK – and yes I do think that wedding was a waste of public money when the family is rich enough to pay – thanks for asking. ๐Ÿ™‚

  7. Alessandro Rosa 6 May, 2011 at 01:00 Reply

    If you don’t want to hear the criticism, then turn of the Comments. Makes sense, sort of like if you don’t want the product then don’t buy it, right?

  8. John Tucker 4 May, 2011 at 14:02 Reply

    Great post, Matt. There will always be naysayers, nitpickers, and complainers, who find fault in or with everything. You NAPP guys are good people, and I for one appreciate all you do.


  9. Ken 4 May, 2011 at 10:23 Reply

    Matt – You guys just don’t get it, which really amazes me.

    This product was hyped as the ground-breaking ability to use layers without leaving Lightroom. That is 100% false. It is nothing more than a simplified PS or PS Elements. Nothing at all wrong with that. But, it is NOT, in any way shape or form, the ability to create layered images without leaving LR.

    Be honest and call the product for what it is, an external editor that lets you create layered images in the LR work flow, just like you can if you were using PS or PS Elements, or any other external editor. Perhaps the product is simple to use, and great for those who don’t have and/or don’t want to learn PS. No problems whatsoever there.

    Reread your second to last paragraph above in your post. What OnOne did is exactly the capability Adobe already has with PS/PS Elements…The ability to create layered images WITH LR. Adobe isn’t doing it because they already have done it. Nothing new or earth shattering from OnOne, just a simpler tool.

    What photographers keep asking Adobe for is the ability to do layers in LR, complete with the non-destructive work flow LR is renowned for. OnOne didn’t do that, so please quit pretending they did.

    What bothers me most is you, Scott, Terry, RC all choosing to belittle those who objected to the hype by ignoring the real complaints and responding with “if it isn’t for you, don’t buy it”.


    • Alessandro Rosa 6 May, 2011 at 01:22 Reply


      That is kind of the issue. People come to Scott and Matt and Terry for trusted advice who don’t know any better and while most of the time SM&T are great teachers and provide good guidance, there are times when they fall into the fan boy mentality and take a less than critical stance when cautionary guidance may be the right approach.

      There are a lot of people who desperately want to be good at photography who aren’t and they will throw good money at tools that won’t really help them because 1) they don’t have good images to do anything with and 2) they have no concept or understanding of what the tools are doing or how they should be applied. But they will buy a product because Scott and Matt think it is cool and awesome, when they really shouldn’t be there in the first place.

      No amount of SIlver Efex or Color Efex or Perfect Layers is going to do anything to help a poorly composed, incorrectly exposed and out of focus image.

      I like Matt a lot. I have met him in person and he is a great guy, and I now that deep down he cares and means well.

    • Thomas Geist 8 May, 2011 at 22:00 Reply

      I have a feeling that this is the comment that hit the nail on the head,
      Many people wish for plug-ins that can actually “plug in” to LR’s processing chain instead of working on baked TIFF files.

      That this is not going to happen (at least not in the near future) is entirely Adobe’s “fault” since they don’t allow it. This fact should probably be pointed out more – it would clarify things.

  10. Rosewood 4 May, 2011 at 08:01 Reply

    I only take issue with what you said in the end. Just because I didn’t leave a comment or get in a forum discussion didn’t mean I wasn’t disappointed by you and Scott and your reactions to this.

    I didn’t think you handled the product well, I didn’t think the product was what you were originally shilling, and I don’t think you are handling the reaction well.

    I wouldn’t have said anything but I didn’t want you to get the impression that only the squeeky wheels were upset with you.

  11. Scott 3 May, 2011 at 18:49 Reply

    Nice reply Matt. The demo video from onOne clearly shows the Layers window operating seperately to the LR window…just like all(?) the other plugins. I guess the anonymity of the internet makes people want to complain from the safety of their basements.

    As with everything any recommends trying on the internet, I’m thankful for someone else doing the groundwork to find these things. I will then decide if it’s any use for me and it will be deleted and forgotten if I don’t like it. It’s that easy.

    Keep on truckin’…errr… keep on recommending!


  12. Shawn 3 May, 2011 at 15:47 Reply

    Well said, Matt. You were nicer than some folks would have been. All the hand-holding you do for so many LR users and then to be accused of bad intentions. It looks like every blog post you put up will now require 10,000 characters, 8 sub-headings, 30 paragraphs, pictures and a flow chart. You know, to make sure the nit-pickers understand.

  13. Angel Wall 3 May, 2011 at 15:22 Reply

    There are already lots of great posts here. Just wanted to add to the side that’s saying “you do a great job… don’t let them get to you… and keep it up”.

  14. yetkin 3 May, 2011 at 13:43 Reply

    I want lightroom to have magic button to create images like Joel Grimes, Dave Hill, Moose Peterson, even The Legend Ansel adams.

    Now I am pretty sure you said once there is gonna be a magic button inside the lightroom do all that. How dare you can say that .Shame on you !!! :)))

    I love watching you guys person like me under educated could learn a bit of photoshop and lightroom its all down to you and Kelby training and all the way from Turkey.Space of in two years.

  15. Don McPhee 3 May, 2011 at 12:16 Reply

    Wow, this is ridiculous. This is the last place I would think people would pick fly sh#t
    out of the pepper. These are the type of people that can’t stay in a relationship because they love being unhappy and creating strife…….

    Matt, Keep up the GREAT work! I enjoy everything you do.

  16. al 3 May, 2011 at 10:40 Reply

    Hey Matt,

    You are too nice. Its a crying shame you feel you have to comment in response to this. I’m reading and keep thinking these complainers need to get a life.Continue doing what you do and ignore such morons.I know you like to please everyone,but you cant. F–k em and move on. Kelby enterprises wont lose a dime!

  17. ButchM 3 May, 2011 at 10:04 Reply

    So there are a few folks on the planet who don’t think that Scott Kelby is perfect?

    This posting, and the last couple of episodes of The Grid are just as bad as those who cried foul over the Perfect Layers announcement … or … RC running to the rescue to post a half dozen defensive comments in a 11th hour defense of the realm on Scott’s blog … all this whining about some folks being upset is just as bad …

    When you provide information, as in anything we do in this life, you are not going to be perfect … if you make an honest mistake … you apologize and move on … there has been more video footage and blog space used in the past week or so than was used in the issue to begin with … when the sole purpose of this blog, Scott’s blog and The Grid is to generate business for the Kelby entity (which I have no problem with whatsoever) … your going to have to deal with a few negative situations now and again … it all seems to be getting to the point that you all are seriously trying to bite the hand that is feeding you … the “If you don’t like it, don’t buy it” line is tiring and if stated perpetually … quite annoying … and just as troubling as those comments you are complaining about …

    It’s not the end of the world … you apologize for the oversight, promise to be more definitive in the future and move on …

    • Andrew 4 May, 2011 at 07:26 Reply

      I agree with Butch. This seems like two schoolyard bullies going at it. Each side has it’s own motivations and one has a bigger crew with a larger audience but bullies nonetheless. The marketing was misleading and the reaction a bit harsh but the reaction by Kelby Group was just as harsh if not cynical and condescending. There’s been so much negativity and an elitist vibe on the blogs and The Grid lately that I’ve unsubscribed. You don’t squelch drama and mis-information by posting more about it, talking about it on a show and having an employee make cynical remarks, that just feeds it. You correct the oversight and move on. Maybe I’ll come back when it’s less about drama and money and more about photography again. Until then, see ya!

  18. Bill Webb 3 May, 2011 at 09:51 Reply

    I guess I missed all of the frantic posting that you mentioned (and am glad that I did) but how can someone complain about a FREE trial/evaluation? That alone should eliminate any questions about in/with/for/etc. Try it and find out for yourself if it’s a fit and how it works. I did and I don’t think there is enough value (yet) to lead me to purchase it. I’ll keep using “Edit in Photoshop” and put up with the move back and forth. …but if the price is low enough I MIGHT go ahead and purchase it.

    You guys rock and I, for one, truly appreciate all you do and send our way.


  19. Rob McAninch 2 May, 2011 at 22:11 Reply

    Well I did not read every single post regarding this issue. I admit I was one that leaned toward some disappointment with the way this plug in was announced. And as I haven’t seen anyone else state it as I scanned over these comments:

    I’d say many of us that wanted Layers in Lightroom, in a non-destructive fashion, already use Photoshop too. So when it was announced that ground breaking software allowed Layers in Lightroom we thought, or at least I thought, onOne and NAPP found the secret sauce to do it in a non destructive way.

    So was it your fault? Not really, my misunderstanding, but perhaps it could have been a little clearer that it was not the holy grail of non-destructive layers that I had been waiting on ๐Ÿ™‚

  20. Howard 2 May, 2011 at 22:10 Reply


    You have no reason to explain anything. You and Scott are doing a great job. As for the whiners — ignore them. They are not worth the time or trouble of responding. Keep up the good work!

  21. Jerry 2 May, 2011 at 19:55 Reply

    Matt, I just want to say what a great job you do in providing this site, taking your time to share your knowledge, give tips and a heads up. Thanks so much. I hope you and your family had a wonderful vacation. Take good care.

    ps. Don’t even give this non-issue a first thought, let alone a second.

  22. Dan DeRyckere 2 May, 2011 at 19:40 Reply

    What is it about the web that brings out the worst behavior in opinionated loons? I have some advise for them: Take a deep breath, hold for ten seconds, slowly let it out. Repeat as necessary.

    Layers with (or in) Photoshop is exactly what my wife and a couple good friends of mine need. They are not interested in and don’t need Photoshop or Photoshop Elements. All they want to do is clean up their photos and play round a bit — the want to be creative and have fun.

    So I downloaded the free trial version of onOne Perfect Layers, installed it, and found that it worked exactly like every other plugin I use — it opens its own window within Lightroom and worked beautifully. I plan to buy it for my wife’s use and recommend it to my friends. I may use it myself, but my workflow involves both Lightroom and Photoshop and I imagine it will stay that way. Perfect layers iis a great idea and fulfills a need for folks like my wife and friends. Someday they may want to start the hard climb to learning Photoshop, but for now they have the perfect solution available to them.

    Matt, you, Scott and the rest of your organization are doing a great job and performing a valuable service. You guys manage to teach us something every day AND make us chuckle too. Thanks for all you do.

    • Ken Cameron 10 June, 2011 at 02:31 Reply

      When I tried it, it opened a separate standalone program, outside Lightroom, which could in fact be used independently without reference to Lightroom. There was no “window within Lightroom”, any more than there is with Photoshop, PtGui, Photomatix, Oloneo or any of the other standalone programs that I access through Lightroom plugins and which, like Perfect Layers, allow me to send my image back to Lightroom when I have finished working on it. I found it quite a nice program, which should suit some people well, although a little pricey and a little overhyped by some people. A nice clean interface, much more user friendly than the layers mode in Photoshop or Elements. I liked the instant preview of the result of blending modes. I was tempted to buy and might have at half the price.

  23. David Naylor 2 May, 2011 at 19:29 Reply

    What got me slightly annoyed was the way this plug-in was marketed as *something else*, as if someone really had managed to hack layers INTO Lightroom. When I found out it wasn’t I was disappointed.

    Prepositions may be very small words, but all the more important. The way you guys constantly said “in lightroom” just gave me the feeling that you were recommending it more because of the money you are about to make from it than the usability of the software.

  24. Bill 2 May, 2011 at 18:42 Reply

    wow…much ado about nothing….Matt I cannot think of anyone who shares more in such an open and constructive way than you….forget the critics…..let them learn to see the glass half full….what a was of time and energy

  25. Wick Smith 2 May, 2011 at 18:31 Reply


    I think you and Scott are slightly misreading the comments by the sane among us who are simply discussing whether or not we would buy a product. Productive or not, people do that all the time. Whether it’s cars, sports teams and players, or celebrities. People have an opinion about the merits of something, and sometimes others in the market want to listen to actual user comments. Unless they are ranting, of course.

    The issue really has little to do with “In” vs. “With” Lightroom, as much as you and Scott want to believe that a slip of the pen caused all this. It’s whether a plugin is fairly priced, or even necessary, that provides such a slim feature set. Perhaps when all the other features are available and the program speeds up to the point of usability the comments will be more complimentary.

    To suggest that layers in PhotoShop or Elements is so much more complicated than layers in Perfect Layers seems like wishful thinking from a marketing perspective. People who know enough to even want to do layers in/with Lightroom will likely be willing to get that same functionality in Elements for half the price.

    I’m as amused as you are that people would get bent out of shape about this and imagine some dark conspiracy. But don’t conflate those people with others who tried the beta and discussed their reactions to it. I personally found the program slow, clumsy and unnecessary. And I don’t want to feel bad about saying so.


  26. Tammie O'Neal 2 May, 2011 at 16:29 Reply

    I am sometimes amazed at people and the need for drama in their lives. Ignore the negative people. Remember if you are causing controversy, that merely means you are doing something! It can be a dangerous thing to have an idea and try and execute it. You guys come up with so many wonderful ideas, training and products, keep up the good work.

  27. Tim 2 May, 2011 at 15:38 Reply

    Next you’ll be getting copies of your blog posts marked up in red ink!
    Bt the way, isn’t Photoshop a plugin for LR? ๐Ÿ˜‰

    • Jen 2 May, 2011 at 16:54 Reply

      “Bt the way, isnย’t Photoshop a plugin for LR? ;-)”

      Ha ha! It is for me! LOL
      You boys are worse than women! So catty! ๐Ÿ˜‰

  28. David K. 2 May, 2011 at 15:13 Reply

    Some people just don’t think! Unless it’s Adobe bring layers to lightroom, then of course it’s going to be a stand-alone plug-in! How could a third party company make any changes or additions to a program that they don’t own? So of course it has to open in its own window.

    And then there’s people who expect everything that’s released to be for them and when it’s not, instead of just shrugging it off and moving on, they’re offended and take it out on you guys.

    And then of course, there are those who have too much time on their hands and look for things to complain about.

  29. Linda Scarbrough 2 May, 2011 at 14:22 Reply

    Dear Matt,
    I am very sorry that people are angry about the wrong wording you used…You are the perfect instructor, writer, and all around professional person.

    The people who were/are outraged regarding about your wording, I bet does not read or understand people do have written errors… thats why it’s called a MISTAKE..

    I dislike people who need to correct and not ” just ask” .. if something was said wrong. Amazing

    Shame on you people out there… get a life…

  30. Thomas Kristensen 2 May, 2011 at 14:04 Reply

    Hi Matt

    Excellent write-up of the whole situation. Personally, I never thought you or Scott had sinister intentions, but you did IMHO oversell the product. I still believe you are the good guys even if we disagree on a few things ๐Ÿ™‚


  31. Aaron Betts 2 May, 2011 at 14:00 Reply


    It is incredible that people get so worked up over stuff like this. It hasn’t even been released yet! I think products like these are great because the more interest something like Layers produces, the better chance we have of Adobe actually adding it IN Lightroom someday (just wanted to be clear there).

    I don’t think you should have to apologize for what was posted, but thank you for taking the high ground. Everyone at Kelby Training always does. I wanted to share that I am in the position today mainly because of Kelby Training and the knowledge that I’ve gotten from the videos there.

    I will be eternally grateful for the opportunities that the site has opened up to me.

    Thank You!


    • Wick Smith 2 May, 2011 at 18:37 Reply

      I think Matt and Scott explained that the reason Adobe will never put Layers IN Lightroom is because it is a non-destructive editing program that works on RAW images. To get a layered image, you first need to convert it to a format that supports layers, like PSD or TIF. So the only way that Lightroom will accommodate layered images is through a plugin, whether PhotoShop or a third party. I don’t believe an XMP file could be created that described layers, masks and blending modes.

  32. James 2 May, 2011 at 13:28 Reply

    Great post and discussion. I read the initial article and am glad to see that there are non-complicated/non-adobe and just plain alternative ways to get the job done. I read reviews about all sorts of tech gear that doesn’t meet my needs for a variety of reasons, but I always appreciate that someone aids my choices through their (usually free) efforts.

    Keep up the good work!

    PS: Time for me to finally buy the copy of Layers that I’ve been promising myself ๐Ÿ™‚

  33. Scott 2 May, 2011 at 13:27 Reply

    Never for the life of me would I have thought that people would get ANGRY over this, but I can grok why they might be disconcerted by this. It does sort of have the feel of a hack job (not saying it IS, just it might FEEL that way) when you switch out of Lightroom into what’s basically another application (the name of the active app changes).

    There’s no arguing with a gut feeling.

    • Wick Smith 2 May, 2011 at 18:40 Reply

      Well, All plugins work that way. what it comes down to is whether the plugin is useful and fairly priced. Nothing wrong with plugins per se.

  34. Azriel 2 May, 2011 at 13:26 Reply

    If written word is your way of communicating the the masses, there are no “little words” ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Neat how OnOne has layers for LR though.

  35. Al Newman 2 May, 2011 at 13:16 Reply

    These words are all that were needed-

    (One word. Yup, one word did all of this. You got us on a technicality. Should it have been written ย“Layers With Lightroomย”. )

    Yes, and that’s all you needed to write.

    The rest of the entry was for the CoolAid kids!

  36. yetkin 2 May, 2011 at 13:01 Reply

    Hi Matt ,

    May I just say something , last few weeks i have seen you all attacking people who gives negative comments or say something you dont like ie the Grid I think its not fair.
    People have their own opinion and you have a blog where people can comment. My observation is not related to this topic but it just caught my attention


    • Wick Smith 2 May, 2011 at 18:44 Reply


      Why are The PhotoShop Guys taking this so hard? People tried the plugin and some of them didn’t like it and said so. Of course they won’t buy it. “If you don’t like it don’t buy it” really seems to mean “If you don’t like it don’t say anything.”

  37. Alan Huntley 2 May, 2011 at 12:59 Reply

    Hey Matt,

    I really cannot believe all the turmoil one single word caused! Aren’t we simply talking semantics here? Anyone who has used any plug-in ever or has even a passing familiarity with even a single plug-in would simply ignore the word “in”. You gotta be kidding me, right? Anyway, you, Scott, the entire NAPP gang (btw, been a member for so long I can’t remember when I joined NAPP), and all the folks at onOne are doing a GREAT job and providing tremendous service to the digital community.

    Keep up the great work and to the naysayers I say: go somewhere else!

  38. darren_c 2 May, 2011 at 12:52 Reply

    Hey Matt,

    I am IN total agreement WITH you here. Too much semantic banter and not enough common sense. However, I wold like to see the long form birth certificate of this program just to be sure ๐Ÿ™‚


  39. Tony 2 May, 2011 at 12:34 Reply

    Keep up the good work. Trust me, you’ll never please everyone. It’s sad but too often true…”no good deed goes unpunished”.

    I’ve learned a lot and will continue to do so from your material. Thanks a bunch!


  40. RON 2 May, 2011 at 12:28 Reply

    It’s a shame that there always has to be “Internet Key Board Commando’s” to blow things out of context. Us smart people know exactly what the real news was about. We even went to onOne’s site to check it out and determined if it was for us or not.
    No need to whine and throw a tantrum over a “plug in” designed to help in the work flow or a simple typo, but I’m sure those who posted the rants never have in their life made a typo. I wish I could be as perfect as them.
    I can see the benefits for quick edits vs opening PS for a more extensive edit. I will add it to my arsenal and use it as needed, I think every tool has its place and use in our work flow.


  41. Jeff 2 May, 2011 at 12:21 Reply

    I think the problem stemmed not from here but on Scott’s blog. Reading the posts there many felt that the rhetoric he used to describe the product was over the top – and with that I would have to agree. If it had been toned down I think there just would have been a cordial back and forth about the utility of the program, and not wether there was some attempt to overhype the software. The emotion came from the feeling that Scott had sacrificed his (well earned) credibility to market a product he was involved with. If he had responded to the criticism early on I think alot of this could have been nipped right away. My 2cents anyway!

  42. Jim Bullard 2 May, 2011 at 12:03 Reply

    I have no argument with the intent of Perfect Layers but billing it as working “in” Lightroom lead to the impression that it was not a separate program creating a new file that is edited in an external dialog and that it would make layers that worked in the same manner that Lightroom does, as a set of instructions to be applied to the RAW file. It isn’t and it doesn’t. While you may view that as a “what the meaning of ‘is’ is” debate, it is an important distinction.

    For those who want to add only layers and nothing else to Lightroom this may well be a nice addition although promoting a ‘no learning necessary’ approach to photo editing by a group that is all about helping people learn to do photo editing does seem a bit odd to me. YMMV

  43. Susan 2 May, 2011 at 11:24 Reply

    Great summary, Matt. Perfect Putting-in-place of the sour-Pusses — Pointed yet totally Professional! Don’tcha hate it when the whiners come out from under their rocks to drag everybody down?

  44. Matt Vanecek 2 May, 2011 at 11:22 Reply

    Matt K.,
    Wording is muy importante. As I’m sure your lawyer(s) tell you! ๐Ÿ™‚

    I would like to point out that Adobe DID provide layers with Lightroom: Photoshop and Photoshop Elements. ๐Ÿ™‚

    onOne is simply providing an alternative, with much more limited functionality, and it appears a much simpler set of capabilities that may be easier to learn. It cannot replace Photoshop, but it could be an alternative for those who may want layers but don’t have Photoshop (Elements) and don’t want to learn Photoshop (Elements).

    Just as an aside, The GIMP could be an alternative, too, since Lightroom can convert to PSD/TIFF on export to external applications. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Tools is tools; use what works for you. If you don’t have & don’t want Photoshop (or Elements), but do want layered files, this may be for you. I personally will not buy it, because I do have PS. But I look forward to the images produced by all who will use it, and I doubt I’ll even know (unless the artist notes it in her/his description). And really, isn’t the final product the important thing?

    • RON 2 May, 2011 at 12:38 Reply

      Oh Boy! you have got to be kidding me, wording and Lawyers?
      over a typo? wonder if there is a way to make a case out of people being that stupid to believe every thing they read or see on TV ? Why are people so lazy to do some research before buying or trying something?

  45. Laurie 2 May, 2011 at 11:05 Reply

    Hey Matt,

    I for one am sorry you had to take your valuable time to respond to all the negativity and anonymous haters. I am always grateful for your insight, recommendations and wealth of knowledge that you share with us….oh, and by the way…FOR FREE!!!

    The nominal cost of my NAPP membership gives me the chance to explore and learn things that are priceless! So, for example just like all the tutorials that are available on NAPP, watch/read the ones that you want and don’t watch/read the ones that you don’t want! I always enjoy watching “The Grid” and cannot believe some of the negative comments that people post about the content of each episode! My 2ยข, you, Scott Kelby, all the many others at NAPP, Kelby Training and all the related sites are doing a GREAT job!

    Please keep up the great work, and forget about all the haters…they are not worth the time it takes you just to type out your response.

    Please accept my simple, humble Thank You ๐Ÿ™‚

  46. John Swarce 2 May, 2011 at 10:53 Reply

    Thanks for the rebuttal/recap of comments, Matt. I never understood why people get so worked up about some things. Perfect Layers isn’t for everyone, but it’s “perfect” for some!

    Hope you didn’t rip too many shirts getting angry over these people!


  47. Deb Scally 2 May, 2011 at 10:51 Reply

    Hey Matt, I wholeheartedly concur with the above comments and always appreciate Kelby Training’s objective and worthwhile instruction and advice. You guys make it fun to learn, which is one reason I tune in and absorb so much! Keep up the great work and your positive attitudes!

  48. timofej 2 May, 2011 at 10:46 Reply

    The problem for me is that all plug-ins create new file. I think the beauty of LR is the nonlinear editing. You can change certain parameters and after a while go back and change them some more. When you create a new file it is not possible any more, all the changes are locked in this file.

  49. KIM morrison 2 May, 2011 at 10:46 Reply

    Well spoken….Anything that comes along that is a good valued tweak to Lightroom I like….If you are not into what I will call a great addition, don’t download it….

  50. Michael Corbin 2 May, 2011 at 10:45 Reply

    Good grief, what a dose of crap you’ve endured over nothing. Some folks need to get a life, already.

    I’ve used both Photoshop and Lightroom for YEARS, but I got the Perfect Layers plugin to try out. Frankly, every plugin is useful for some and not useful for others. Big deal. You don’t like this one? So don’t buy it!

    I’m so sorry to hear you, Scott, and NAPP have had to endure any of the whiners. You guys do great work, keep it up, and in the famous words of John Wayne’s telegram to Barbara Walters, “Don’t let the bastards get you down.”

  51. David 2 May, 2011 at 10:36 Reply

    Matt, to be honest I wouldnt have dignified these idiots with the post you made today. I really like the comparison to TV that if you dont like it switch the channel. To be honest I am not a big fan of onOne products however I do like this program. I just choose not to buy and not to take an hour to bash someone over it. Just makes no sense to me. You, and Scott do a great job. I am suprised however that the Lightroom execs took some shots at you guys though.

  52. Michael Smith 2 May, 2011 at 10:31 Reply

    Thanks for helping in the development of this product. I really like it and think it will be useful to many, many photographers. I teach Photoshop, Elements and Lightroom and I like to show my students as many work flow options as possible. Perfect Layers is a big step for Lightroom and a good one.

    I’m with the rest who suggest to the unhappy ones,”If you don’t like it , don’t use it.”

  53. Benoit Jansen-Reynaud 2 May, 2011 at 10:15 Reply

    Hi Matt,
    There is absolutely no need for an apology, seriously…. what is wrong with people. This is a great plug in for anyone without Photoshop or anyone wanting to do a quick layer adjustment. I have Photoshop but will use Perfect Layers….. Incredible that some people feel the need to complain about such mindless issues…..

  54. Mark Lawrence 2 May, 2011 at 10:15 Reply

    Put it behind you !
    You guys are why we look on the internet every morning and can’t wait for the next tool that comes out to fill our toolbox .The people that give you a hard time are the “LOSERS”.
    Keep up the good work Please.

  55. Dennis Zito 2 May, 2011 at 10:06 Reply

    Hey Matt,

    Great blog today! In my post I didn’t mean to imply anything about you or Scott or NAPP being unethical. My problem was another program that leaves a .tiff in Lightroom and why I would need it if I have PS CS5. Your answer to my post cleared that up for me. In hind sight, maybe if it had been mentioned that if you have PS CS5 or Elements you might not need this program. Make sense? Anyway, sorry if I offended you. Was not my intent. I think you are a stand up guy and respect your work as a trainer and photographer! Please accept my apology.


    • John Swarce 2 May, 2011 at 10:50 Reply

      Great video. I laughed when I saw the list of related videos on the right and one was for a tutorial on a Taekwondo back flip kick! I hear Matt knows a thing or two about that martial art….


  56. Len 2 May, 2011 at 09:57 Reply

    Didn’t follow the other post which you speak of Matt, as I have no interest in the product.. but I agree that some people would, why people have to flame off on new products or you guys for bringing them up is beyond me..

    I guess they would just rather you talk about the same products over and over again…

    Not this guy, I for one like the new product announcements.. I took a look, realized it wasn’t for me and moved on.

    Isn’t that what everyone is supposed to do?

  57. Mark Bernat 2 May, 2011 at 09:33 Reply


    You and Scott and everyone else at kelbytraining and NAPP are doing a GREAT job. Don’t let the over-the-top critics get you down. I learn something every day from your sites and videos and blogs.

    It seems to me that those who are upset need to take a step back and think about how much creative power we have with all of the tools that are now at our disposal (compared to only a few years ago) and count some blessings instead of getting so upset about something as trivial as this.

    Mark Bernat

      • David - DSP 20 May, 2011 at 06:12 Reply

        You will always have the naysayers. It’s just the world we live in. Some are genuinely annoyed whilst others just like the argument. Being a professional wedding photographer, hearing the ‘wow’s’ at your work is pretty much the main selling point to becoming a wedding and portrait photographer, in my opinion. Hearing the negatives are what give us a kick and remind us to learn from each and every shoot/product delivery. Take the hit, move forward.

        An important element regarding professionalism surrounding the services you offer, is remaining positively constructive in the face of adverse criticism and this is ultimately derived from two main factors: belief in your product and industry knowledge.

        Three comments to close on here: great site, great service Matt, great professionalism.

        Keep doing what you’re doing.

        All the best,


      • London Wedding Photographer 20 May, 2011 at 06:12 Reply

        You will always have the naysayers. It’s just the world we live in. Some are genuinely annoyed whilst others just like the argument. Being a professional wedding photographer, hearing the ‘wow’s’ at your work is pretty much the main selling point to becoming a wedding and portrait photographer, in my opinion. Hearing the negatives are what give us a kick and remind us to learn from each and every shoot/product delivery. Take the hit, move forward.

        An important element regarding professionalism surrounding the services you offer, is remaining positively constructive in the face of adverse criticism and this is ultimately derived from two main factors: belief in your product and industry knowledge.

        Three comments to close on here: great site, great service Matt, great professionalism.

        Keep doing what you’re doing.

        All the best,


  58. Brian F. 2 May, 2011 at 09:30 Reply

    It is a shame that there are people out there who think that every one is out to screw them. I watched Scott and Terry on the Grid last week and the amount of effort they had to put into defending this product was sickening at best. It goes to the basic argument they were making: If you don’t like it don’t use it. If you want a hug go to Flicker. If possible can you post a list of all the people who were bashing you and this product, because obviously I need to be getting my thoughts and opinions from them :P. Keep doing a great job Matt. Thank you.

  59. Paul Boyd 2 May, 2011 at 09:17 Reply

    Don’t stop the info Scott. It wouldn’t matter if it was layers or another topic people become obsessed and radical in their views. I have always been very appricatice of your comments about most things and I feel that you always give a very balanced view. This a statement from a Canon and Apature user and by the way I also use Photoshop and Lightroom. It’s just a tool and like the hand tools I use on wood and metal I use the ones I like best not because they are the best necessary but because I just like to use them!

  60. Will McGregor 2 May, 2011 at 09:17 Reply

    Thanks Matt.

    Someone was slating it in a forum and i came to the plug in’s defense (after downloading the beta and giving it a try)

    When Scott first announced perfect layers, I thought it would be cool, as mostly the reason I go to photoshop is for the use of layers, I like it, but still prefer photoshop, but it is so fantastic that it has been made for the users who really need it and don’t have photoshop.

    I received a total roasting on forums for defending it, my stance being “if you need it buy it, if you don’t…then don’t!)

    It is definitely going to be a fantastic plug in for those that need it. One guy was complaining about it even though he had the full onOne suite (which i’m sure you get perfect layers for free with ?)

    I love the fact that folks at onOne and yourselves are putting ideas forward to make our lives easier in our post workflow.

    • JeanMichel 4 May, 2011 at 04:49 Reply

      If you look closely to forums, you see that 99% of the messages are complains or critics and only 1% is good criticism. When I installed Perfect Layers, not for one second I thought about complaining about the way it integrates with Lightroom.
      So to the Onone guys and the NAPP crew, keep up the good work and forget about these unnecessary and stupid critics.
      Have a nice day. you’re great.

  61. Paul Howard 2 May, 2011 at 08:56 Reply

    Um, wow! Don’t sweat it guys. Those people never heard, “if you don’t like that show, change the channel” growing up.
    Good idea, tried it, like it, don’t know the price yet, don’t know if I’ll buy it.
    Maybe we should say that all these plug-ins “hug” Lightroom, and we can spread some love! Ahaha!
    You, Scott, and the rest of the team just keep doing what you’re doing. Great job.

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